Comments on: EspeRanting http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/ Piece of Work In Progress Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:02:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Remush http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/comment-page-1/#comment-10710 Remush Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:49:29 +0000 http://powip.com/?p=1116#comment-10710 "I look forward to the day in which great novels and poems are written in Esperanto, translated into the languages that I know, and make me long to learn it." Dear Dan, No, you wouldn't: you'd find another excuse. If what you say is true, search in Google with "original Esperanto literature". But remember, no translation matches the original 100%. The perfect language for everybody is a myth, but a good enough second language to get out of the trap is a reality. Of course you do not resent language hegemony. The French didn't either less than 100 years ago. Remuŝ “I look forward to the day in which great novels and poems are written in Esperanto, translated into the languages that I know, and make me long to learn it.”

Dear Dan,
No, you wouldn’t: you’d find another excuse.
If what you say is true, search in Google with “original Esperanto literature”. But remember, no translation matches the original 100%.

The perfect language for everybody is a myth, but a good enough second language to get out of the trap is a reality.

Of course you do not resent language hegemony. The French didn’t either less than 100 years ago.

Remuŝ

]]> By: Dan Collins http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/comment-page-1/#comment-10634 Dan Collins Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:18:04 +0000 http://powip.com/?p=1116#comment-10634 You know, this whole business is ridiculous. You'll forgive me, I hope, if I say that I am as skeptical of linguistic utopianism as I am of any other form of utopianism. That doesn't mean that we are excused from attempting to improve ourselves, our societies, our discourse, and to those of you who wish to make of Esperanto a great language, I wish you all the luck in the world in your great project. I look forward to the day in which great novels and poems are written in Esperanto, translated into the languages that I know, and make me long to learn it. For those of you, however, who wish to whinge and complain that it would somehow be fairer that Esperanto be taught generally in place of other languages, and that we owe it to you in some fashion, because of linguistic "hegemony" or "imperialism" and all of the other blather, please, shut up. This is Gramscian nonsense applied to language. We are all trapped in a world that we never made. All languages, even the artificially created ones, have biases. Human cognition and intellect have biases. We cannot "linguify" our way out of them. The Cratylus still appertains. You know, this whole business is ridiculous. You’ll forgive me, I hope, if I say that I am as skeptical of linguistic utopianism as I am of any other form of utopianism. That doesn’t mean that we are excused from attempting to improve ourselves, our societies, our discourse, and to those of you who wish to make of Esperanto a great language, I wish you all the luck in the world in your great project. I look forward to the day in which great novels and poems are written in Esperanto, translated into the languages that I know, and make me long to learn it.

For those of you, however, who wish to whinge and complain that it would somehow be fairer that Esperanto be taught generally in place of other languages, and that we owe it to you in some fashion, because of linguistic “hegemony” or “imperialism” and all of the other blather, please, shut up. This is Gramscian nonsense applied to language. We are all trapped in a world that we never made. All languages, even the artificially created ones, have biases. Human cognition and intellect have biases. We cannot “linguify” our way out of them. The Cratylus still appertains.

]]> By: Enoch_Root http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/comment-page-1/#comment-10632 Enoch_Root Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:52:06 +0000 http://powip.com/?p=1116#comment-10632 what is this "linguistic enslavement" you speak of? Does it involve reparations? what is this “linguistic enslavement” you speak of? Does it involve reparations?

]]> By: Enoch_Root http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/comment-page-1/#comment-10631 Enoch_Root Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:45:16 +0000 http://powip.com/?p=1116#comment-10631 Professor - No offense - I am not particularly fond of the British for a slew of reasons. Yet, I can still appreciate the English language just fine. There was nothing inherently wrong with the cassette tape - it just isn't as great as a cd. Doesn't mean the content sucks. Professor – No offense – I am not particularly fond of the British for a slew of reasons. Yet, I can still appreciate the English language just fine.

There was nothing inherently wrong with the cassette tape – it just isn’t as great as a cd. Doesn’t mean the content sucks.

]]> By: mankso http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/comment-page-1/#comment-10627 mankso Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:07:34 +0000 http://powip.com/?p=1116#comment-10627 Thank you, Quere, for that! And Meep does not even seem to think it worth a mention that the whole point of Esperanto is as a NON-ethnic interlanguage. The use of any ethnic language automatically advantages and privileges its native-speakers, and discriminates against speakers of all other languages. Not so speak of its cost-effectiveness, when learning time is brought into the equation. Apparently the linguistic enslavement of 92-95% of the world's population (i.e. non-native-speakers of English) is acceptable to him/her, as is the destructive world hegemony of one ethnic master-language. Thank you, Quere, for that! And Meep does not even seem to think it worth a mention that the whole point of Esperanto is as a NON-ethnic interlanguage. The use of any ethnic language automatically advantages and privileges its native-speakers, and discriminates against speakers of all other languages. Not so speak of its cost-effectiveness, when learning time is brought into the equation. Apparently the linguistic enslavement of 92-95% of the world’s population (i.e. non-native-speakers of English) is acceptable to him/her, as is the destructive world hegemony of one ethnic master-language.

]]> By: QUERE http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/comment-page-1/#comment-10623 QUERE Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:23:41 +0000 http://powip.com/?p=1116#comment-10623 One may wish that, sometime, in some 'Perhapsland', a valiant guy named Meep, will ponder over the fact that: 1/Esperanto does not aim at replacing any other language 2/It is a of verbal 'lego' the rules of which are quick to learn ( for a 'frog' like me, compared to English, one hour dedicated to Esperanto is the equivalent often the time of 10/12 hours spent over your "Actually pretty good English" 3/A l'époque de louis XIV il nous était agréables, à nous français, de constater l'universalité de notre langue! Sorry, have I to translate? Have I to ascend the stairs to your jumbo? Ok or all right, I like the idea of the 'new wheel' girating around nice ball bearings and 4/ the pronounciation of which is the most accurate and simple of ALL the spoken languages! A last confidence: well my English (which I like) is not that badly spoken, anyway, at times, hearing english speaking people I really doubt having studied it.. 5/did you really consecrate an honest time (3 hours) to see how E-o works, before rejecting it with such, either ignorance or let me put it that brutal way, dishonesty? An answer will be welcome, as you choose, in French, Breton, Spanish, German, Russian and of course Esperanto . Bien à vous cher Meep One may wish that, sometime, in some ‘Perhapsland’, a valiant guy named Meep, will ponder over the fact that:
1/Esperanto does not aim at replacing any other language
2/It is a of verbal ‘lego’ the rules of which are quick to learn ( for a ‘frog’ like me, compared to English, one hour dedicated to Esperanto is the equivalent often the time of 10/12 hours spent over your “Actually pretty good English”
3/A l’époque de louis XIV il nous était agréables, à nous français, de constater l’universalité de notre langue! Sorry, have I to translate? Have I to ascend the stairs to your jumbo? Ok or all right, I like the idea of the ‘new wheel’ girating around nice ball bearings and
4/ the pronounciation of which is the most accurate and simple of ALL the spoken languages! A last confidence: well my English (which I like) is not that badly spoken, anyway, at times, hearing english speaking people I really doubt having studied it..
5/did you really consecrate an honest time (3 hours) to see how E-o works, before rejecting it with such, either ignorance or let me put it that brutal way, dishonesty?
An answer will be welcome, as you choose, in French, Breton, Spanish, German, Russian and of course Esperanto .
Bien à vous cher Meep

]]> By: Meep http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/comment-page-1/#comment-10614 Meep Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:38:29 +0000 http://powip.com/?p=1116#comment-10614 I am making fun of attempts to "perfect" human language. What people forget is that all "real" languages - used in real speaking communities, who will be creating new words as time goes on and changing the grammar, the way all living languages change - are never "clean", "pure", etc. If you want an international language that people will speak globally, there are any number of languages that are already spoken internationally - spanish, chinese, english, arabic. The thing is if you dig deep in each of these, you'll note all the dialects, and many of the flavors are mutually unintelligible spoken [though they all work pretty well as written languages]. "Book language" differs quite a bit from how language is actually used, and when you get people actually using this stuff all the "illogical" features will creep back in. John McWhorter has written a lot on that subject [I highly recommend McWhorter's "Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue" for a really interesting look at the development of the English language.] English is actually pretty good about not having too much variance now between its dialects [this was not always so], and it really is a global language. Why reinvent the wheel, when you've got a jumbo jet at your disposal? I am making fun of attempts to “perfect” human language.

What people forget is that all “real” languages – used in real speaking communities, who will be creating new words as time goes on and changing the grammar, the way all living languages change – are never “clean”, “pure”, etc.

If you want an international language that people will speak globally, there are any number of languages that are already spoken internationally – spanish, chinese, english, arabic. The thing is if you dig deep in each of these, you’ll note all the dialects, and many of the flavors are mutually unintelligible spoken [though they all work pretty well as written languages]. “Book language” differs quite a bit from how language is actually used, and when you get people actually using this stuff all the “illogical” features will creep back in. John McWhorter has written a lot on that subject [I highly recommend McWhorter's "Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue" for a really interesting look at the development of the English language.]

English is actually pretty good about not having too much variance now between its dialects [this was not always so], and it really is a global language. Why reinvent the wheel, when you’ve got a jumbo jet at your disposal?

]]> By: Tom Oak http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/comment-page-1/#comment-10613 Tom Oak Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:57:01 +0000 http://powip.com/?p=1116#comment-10613 @Bob Reed: I have a feeling Noam Chomsky doesn't necessarily love communists the way you think he does. In some crazy implausible alternate reality where the U.S. had collapsed first in the Cold War he'd be writing books from one of the remaining non-aligned outposts about manipulation of the public through state-owned media and suppression/misrepresentation of nationalist or anarchist or maybe even bourgeois revolutionaries. If pressed lightly he identifies as an anarchist or libertarian socialist so his function is basically to attack the dominant ideology that maintains a position of authority and highlight the misuse of that authority, you just see him as he is today because that happens to be neoliberalism. @Bob Reed: I have a feeling Noam Chomsky doesn’t necessarily love communists the way you think he does. In some crazy implausible alternate reality where the U.S. had collapsed first in the Cold War he’d be writing books from one of the remaining non-aligned outposts about manipulation of the public through state-owned media and suppression/misrepresentation of nationalist or anarchist or maybe even bourgeois revolutionaries. If pressed lightly he identifies as an anarchist or libertarian socialist so his function is basically to attack the dominant ideology that maintains a position of authority and highlight the misuse of that authority, you just see him as he is today because that happens to be neoliberalism.

]]> By: Quéré Gabriel http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/comment-page-1/#comment-8637 Quéré Gabriel Fri, 16 Oct 2009 17:20:03 +0000 http://powip.com/?p=1116#comment-8637 French: 'préjugé = English: 'prejudice', Esperanto: 'antaujugho', German:'Vorurteil'; Spanish:'prejuicio';Breton and Welsh: 'rakvarn'; Russian:'predrassudock' etc... I am 77 years old now, after, as a hoby, having been interested in different languages, my sole regret is to have started studying Esperanto too late for me (5 years). The varied forms of 'prejudice' are a personal gift to "Enoch_root". May he honestly, earnestly, devote, let's say 3 hours to the study of Esperanto before proclaiming nonsences.This wonderful language one can learn to speak and PRONOUNCE easily,( for a frenchman a tenth to a fifteenth of the necessary time which English requires, for equivalent results)... That is what I experienced. Now I teach Esperanto in Landerneau where I live. French: ‘préjugé = English: ‘prejudice’, Esperanto: ‘antaujugho’, German:’Vorurteil’; Spanish:’prejuicio’;Breton and Welsh: ‘rakvarn’;
Russian:’predrassudock’ etc… I am 77 years old now, after, as a hoby, having been interested in different languages, my sole regret is to have started studying Esperanto too late for me (5 years). The varied forms of ‘prejudice’ are a personal gift to “Enoch_root”. May he honestly, earnestly, devote, let’s say 3 hours to the study of Esperanto before proclaiming nonsences.This wonderful language one can learn to speak and PRONOUNCE easily,( for a frenchman a tenth to a fifteenth of the necessary time which English requires, for equivalent results)… That is what I experienced. Now I teach Esperanto in Landerneau where I live.

]]> By: Нобеловата награда за мир, « Графът http://powip.com/2009/09/esperanting/comment-page-1/#comment-8587 Нобеловата награда за мир, « Графът Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:40:01 +0000 http://powip.com/?p=1116#comment-8587 [...] Ето произволно взети връзки, които дават достатъчно представа за какво става дума: Hussein Obama’s NWO EspeRanting [...] [...] Ето произволно взети връзки, които дават достатъчно представа за какво става дума: Hussein Obama’s NWO EspeRanting [...]

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